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RE: SAM One Day Pattern Contest May 18
I had a great time at the contest Saturday and another great time today flying at Hollister with the Jon's and Dale! Many thanks to Don Atwood for setting the pattern on how to do a 1-dayer. It couldn't have gone better. Thanks to Frank for the great dogs on Saturday. And thanks to any and all involved. It was a very enjoyable weekend! Looking forward to Oakdale in a couple of weeks!
Posted on: 5/19/2013 9:58 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11516716
RE: Making Molds of Classic Pattern Plane Fuselages & Parts to Keep them Alive for all of us to Enjoy!
Yep, it's a .60 model. I can bring the kit to the Classic Fly-In at Riverside next week if you're interested. Tony
Posted on: 5/16/2013 8:21 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "Classic RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11513836
RE: Making Molds of Classic Pattern Plane Fuselages & Parts to Keep them Alive for all of us to Enjoy!
I just got these two delivered yesterday. Got them right here on RCU in the Classifieds. The Intruder ended up being a .40 when I was looking for a .60, but it's nice. Would be a fun model to build. The Pulsar is really nice, untouched kit. This is one that would really benefit from Don's skills as the fuse is pretty heavy. You interested in doing one, Don? If so I can get it to you. The .40 Intruder is also a bit on the heavy side if you want to do it also.
Posted on: 5/16/2013 11:53 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "Classic RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11513381
RE: Electric Vs Engine.
In fact, Pilot/Caller teams are not recognized by the FAI in the F3A event. And the AMA does not pay for the caller/mechanic of a team pilot.
Posted on: 8/21/2012 5:02 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11201386
RE: Phoenix 7
Dave, yea I did. Should have remembered that one since I flew an ABC Speed in my Tiporare in the 1983 World's. But the P-7 was about over by then.
Posted on: 8/18/2012 4:37 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "Classic RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11198153
RE: Phoenix 7
O.S. .60 and .61 F-SR's, Supertigre G.60's and X.60's, Rossi .60's. These were the most popular. You might occasionally see an Enya. Then some Y.S. engines as they came out.
Posted on: 8/17/2012 5:58 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "Classic RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11196674
RE: Phoenix 8 Landing Gear
I've sold my P-8. Right now thinking of building the Compensator kit I have. We can talk about building your P-8!
Posted on: 8/12/2012 9:56 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "Classic RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11191158
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
I agree completely with Dave. That just seems INCONCEIVABLE! As far as trying to make a point here, this come to mind, Miracle Max: Have fun stormin' da castle. Valerie: Think it'll work? Miracle Max: It would take a miracle.
Posted on: 8/12/2012 9:54 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11191156
RE: Phoenix 8 Landing Gear
Thanks, but there is no way I would build a P-7 or P-8 other then the stock side mounted, side exhaust engine with the pipe going under the wing. Back in the day I saw too many people try the rear exhaust thing and it ruined how the model flew. They wouldn't knife edge as well and it put a lot of roll and pitch mix in with rudder. It really needs the pipe hanging under the wing to keep the extra side area.
Posted on: 8/9/2012 9:55 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "Classic RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11187803
RE: Phoenix 8 Landing Gear
Thanks! After going back and forth I've decided to build the P-7 I have instead. I've listed the P-8 kit for sale if anyone's interested.
Posted on: 8/9/2012 1:16 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "Classic RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11187249
Phoenix 8 Landing Gear
I'm just starting to build a Phoenix 8 kit I've had for years. The kit was lacking the drawing and for the most part I don't need it. But I need the length of the main landing gear and it's location on the wing. How far back from the flat spot on the front of the wing is the gear? If someone can get me this along with the gear length I'd appreciate it! Thanks!
Posted on: 8/9/2012 10:14 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "Classic RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11187051
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
mjfrederick, You use such a crude term as "urinate", even when all I have been doing is praising Brett and Bryan for making the team. That is simply untrue and is insulting. You don't need a Dynamometer to know that an electric motor will always have more low end torque then an IC motor. It is simply the nature of the beast. As soon as an electric motor starts to spin it is making nearly full horsepower. So it will always beat the IC motor in low end power. Just a little more of that science stuff. I have no idea what you could mean from "horizontal lift". But wings are not producing any significant amount of lift in either an upline or a downline. They are of course still producing drag. But since they are not producing lift, it is not induced drag, but it is parasitic drag. So if you hypothetically removed them, the model would go faster in both the upline and the downline. Only because the drag is reduced, not the lift. BTW, even in horizontal flight the wings do not produce just induced drag. They are also a source of parasitic drag. I respect the amount of work that Bryan has done in many areas. I do disagree with some of his methods and I do believe that though he often ends up at the right place, he really doesn't understand why he ended up there. To many the why is not that important, and that is fine. I think it would be better to try to understand as much of the why as I can.
Posted on: 8/7/2012 10:16 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11184360
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
Brian, Believe me, I got your point. I took nothing personally until it became personal. And you were certainly one that made it very personal. Again good luck to the team! As I said before, I think all it's members make it one of the strongest ones I have ever seen!
Posted on: 8/7/2012 7:58 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11184206
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
Bryan, Here are a couple of things you said very early on, [i]I can tell you this, there will be a mass migration back to Glow for the simple fact that Glow power has the advantage of throttle flexibility. there is no denying this .[/i] [i]I`ll take that bet! The only smoke that will betray you is the one showing the "spiral slip stream" or coming out of a speed controler! [/i] [i]We could always raise the weight limit! so your airplanes make weight with the HEAVY packs.[/i] You may not have been trying to insult but the end result was that you did. Then when I made some comments I got buried by the glow posse. I could have gone into more things, like the comment that glow has better low end torque. Again, the science would show you how incorrect that statement is, but we're not believing science anymore. With this I'm happy to let it drop and move out of here. Again, great job to you and Brett for making another team. I wish you only the best!
Posted on: 8/7/2012 7:53 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11184197
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
Brian, I have several time praised both Brett and Bryan for the great accomplishment of making the team. The only things I have objected to is the assertion that electric is on the way out and YS will soon be the only way to go. And then the errors in the understanding of how things actually work. Never said that Bryan was wrong with where he eventually got, just that he was wrong in how he thinks he got there. Now here is what you posted. You can claim you used no names but that is just being sly. Everyone knows who you took aim. [i]"I know everything there is to know about airplanes because I USED to be somebody." Huh? [/i] When did I ever say that? I didn't, so that's not true. [i]"I know everything there is to know about model airplanes because I've worked where smart guys were" Osmosis? Libertarian [/i] Obviously you are referring to my story about what happened when I was at NASA. I actually thought I was showing how I used incorrect terms and was corrected by a proper engineer. I guess it was too subtle. I was trying to show that as modelers we often think we know what we're doing, and after a lot of trial and error we end up in the right place. But a little education, which I lacked at the time, can go a long way to making that trip a little shorter. [i]"I know everything there is to know about model airplanes and if you don't believe me, you can ask me" Circular, Republican [/i] Now I guess that one might actually be referring to Bryan. If not, then it's me and I don't know how you came to that conclusion. Never said it. [i]"You don't know anything about airplanes because your spelling/grammer/diction isn't perfect" I really LOVE that one! Shoot the messenger, kill the message, so very Democratic [/i] I guess I could be guilty there, but all the misspellings do come across poorly. Particularly when the poster is constantly saying that science, ie knowledge, has no benefit. [i]"I can make up facts more convincingly than anyone, it must be so" Nanner nanner, boo boo, Socialistic [/i] Guess that one could apply to everyone who posted here. But I haven't made any facts up. [i]"Fixed gear have less drag than NO gear" (retracts retracted) WOW! This one defies any classification, just plain old dumb [/i] Now this one is where Bryan really got insulting and now you are piling on. You went ahead and did some more creative paraphrasing to twist what I said. I was there when the switch was made. I've even seen some actual data. It has been shown in many types of models and in full scale. A properly designed fixed gear will be less drag then poorly done retracts. Unless the holes are covered by tight fitting doors or the wheels go in to close fitting wells that have the wheel flush to the surface of the wing, it will be more drag. At NASA I worked for a while with the person who at the time designed and built a man carrying airplane that had the lowest flat plate drag profile. It had a very well designed fixed gear. I talked with him at length. [i]"listen to ME, I use aeronautical terms convincingly" Boring [/i] Sounds like don't confuse me with the facts. Which one is right? It might be stretching to say that what you did here was lying. But it's not stretching to say a lot was just not true. I've had the benefit of designing, building and flying a lot of research models that carried sophisticated data systems that recorded a lot of actual flight data. The first time I flew one with a system like that, before the engineers downloaded the data, they'd come over and ask what did I do and how did it react. So many times what I thought I did and what I thought the model did was just not what the data showed had actually happened. That told me that I'd rather believe data then my assumptions. And whatever data and actual science and knowledge that can be applied to our sport I will use. But very little in flying pattern is objective. It's all based on subjective viewpoints and we all have different opinions on what looks right. But in pattern, if it looks better, it is better. Whether it actually is or not.
Posted on: 8/6/2012 11:01 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11183823
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
You got me there. I forgot about Quique. I stand corrected. My apologies to Quique. I was just thinking about the last time you won the F3A WC. Still a great accomplishment. But according to Brian Clemmons it's no longer relevant. Sorry!
Posted on: 8/6/2012 9:00 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11183741
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
Now the beat down begins. I stand by the fact that what I have presented is correct in the science. Not everyone here can say that. Go back and read what Bryan Hebert has posted. He has been extremely insulting to me and anyone else who in the slightest disagrees with him. Some others the same. I was only trying to correct the errors and misconceptions about technical items posted here. Now Brian Clemmons piles on. Brian, you have twisted what I have posted here into something you "think" I have posted and then just outright lied about it. Shame on you. This thread started with congratulations to the winner and the Team and was diverted by Bryan talking up his model and powerplant and then claiming that everyone serious about F3A is going to have to switch or lose. I wasn't the first to start to object to that claim, but apparently I got the most attention. I also know that some have posted incorrect information to divert away from the facts. Shame on them too. I agree. Go by what the designers of the winning models are doing. And at this years Nats it was a large fuselage monoplane with fixed gear powered by an electric motor. 'nuff said.
Posted on: 8/6/2012 8:59 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11183737
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
4u2nv-RCU, Well, I'm a registered Independent who voted for McCain, and I also agreed with Jim's anology. I guess my statement was anti-Republican and I should have come up with a better one. I apologize. But it was the best one I could think of at the time. Sorry! Guy, I literally laughed out loud! Thanks!
Posted on: 8/6/2012 1:58 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11183200
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
tuny, myself and others are just trying to educate. You were insulting in your posts and I acted in kind. You apparently can't or won't get that the terms you are using are incorrect. So be it. Jim, you're right on. I remember when I first started at NASA and tried to explain the dual rates on my TX. I know what they did but the engineer couldn't understand it. Finally after many minutes of discussion he got what I meant and he then explained that the term was incorrect. They were not dual rates, but dual gains. Lesson learned. I'm not an engineer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express!
Posted on: 8/6/2012 11:30 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11183009
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
tuny, yes, you are. Excessive use of exclamation points and question marks is disrespectful. The tone of your posts are also disrespectful. And I don't respond all that well to threats. So please choose your words very carefully.
Posted on: 8/6/2012 10:07 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182928
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
I'd have to modify just slightly what MTK just said. In a vertical line, the entire model, not just the wings, must be producing zero lift or the line will not track vertical. There may be very slight, near zero lift forces from the wings, the stab, the fuse, etc. But all these force vectors must total zero for the line to remain straight.
Posted on: 8/6/2012 10:02 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182926
RE: Osiris 2m Flight
I talked to Andrew a couple of days ago. He just got the latest prototype and will be flying it soon. Not sure when the production run will be in, but I'm sure they will be worth the wait.
Posted on: 8/6/2012 9:43 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "Electric Pattern Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182901
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
tuny, yes they do. It's called what angle of attack are they at? If they are at the zero lift AOA then they are not producing lift. Please, get a kindergarten book on why airplanes fly. Maybe it will be called, "See Spot Fly". "Fly Spot Fly".
Posted on: 8/6/2012 9:37 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182896
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
Bryan, there are enough errors in grammar and spelling in just this last post to make a grade school teacher cry. But I know English is a second language for you. After all you are flyncajun!
Posted on: 8/6/2012 8:16 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182826
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
Hard for me to discuss Science with someone who can't even spell it. Bryan, good luck to you and Brett! I know your hard work allows you to develop great flying models. I do respect that part of what you do.
Posted on: 8/6/2012 7:12 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182746
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
It seems that talking the science here with some is like trying to talk about evolution with a bunch of Republican Presidential candidates. Fortunately there are others here that know how to make sense from all this. Good luck to the U.S. Team in 2013! I think this team will prove to be one of the strongest teams ever! And may very well return not only the Team Championship but also the Individual to the good ole USA. After all, it's been over a fifth of a century since the USA had an Individual Champion!
Posted on: 8/6/2012 6:56 AM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182724
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
Bryan, I wonder who is getting absurd and belligerent now? Because I know I never did. You present your points without the science to back them up, and then attack and insult the person who points that out. Many of your points are simply incorrect to the actual known aerodynamics. That doesn't mean that what you have developed doesn't fly well. I'm absolutely sure that it does. The fact that you really don't understand why it does simply puts you on the list of a lot of top model airplane designers and fliers. Very little about R/C Precision Aerobatics is done objectively with actual data to support it. Sometimes the only real data are contest results. What wins is better then what doesn't. And we all know that isn't always correct. I gave you guys praise for your accomplishment. I still do that. Great job! I just don't see where placing third at the US Nats means that it's the only way to go. But it is obviously another good choice of the many that are out there.
Posted on: 8/5/2012 11:52 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182501
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
I hope I was clear, but if the wings are not producing lift, then all they are doing if the airplane is moving is producing parasitic drag.
Posted on: 8/5/2012 7:35 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182328
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
I would like to make one thing clear. Maybe Jim will confirm this. Induced drag is the drag caused by producing lift. Parasitic drag is all the other drag. When you are going straight down you are basically not producing any induced drag, as you are not producing lift. So all the drag is parasitic. Same as when you are going straight up. The lift is the prop. All the other drag is parasitic and is holding you back. BTW, retracts do not significantly reduce the drag of the airframe unless they also use doors. Pete Goldsmith was one of the early proponents of fixed gear as he did wind tunnel tests that showed properly designed fixed gear created no more drag then retracts without doors but they had less turbulence then doorless retracts. This was particularly true with taildragger retracts as they put the holes in front of the high point of the wing, not behind it as in trike retracts. And I really have to disagree with Brett's choice of props for electric. They've come a long way from running either 22x12's or 20x15's. I know of no one using either prop anymore. And the choice of what motor to use has come a long way. Inrunner's, outrunners, a variety of gear drives and Kv ratings have made it pretty easy to decide how you want to fly. Much more choice now then just a couple of years ago. And I think it's hard to say how Brett would have done with another model. Maybe he would have won? Or maybe he would have been 8th? Impossible to say. Looking at the new Unknowns, one thing is apparent. It is more like ETOC indoor foamy flying then pattern flying. And that event is dominated by tall fuselage monoplanes. Also, hard to run IC engines as it gets pretty smokey indoors!
Posted on: 8/5/2012 6:00 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182220
RE: F3A Results - SPOILER
Thanks to Jim Oddino to bringing some actual correct physics to this discussion. For most of this I am again reminded of my old coach Harry Roe and his "aerodramatics" term. It would also be nice if those that are stating that their set-up is the ultimate game changer did it from a position of strength in their placing in the contest instead of telling us all, just trust us. Not that placing third and making the team is not a fantastic accomplishment, it certainly is. And I applaud Brett and Bryan for making it. But it comes across a little weak when 1st and 2nd were electric and so dominated the final scores. And I also think it cheapens Brett's incredible accomplishment as the most important part of the equation, the pilot.
Posted on: 8/5/2012 4:23 PM by Author "TonyF"
in the forum "RC Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11182084
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