RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)
Yea, it's been a few weeks since I've been on as other projects and builds have taken up my time. I'll be posting some pictures of some EPS builds as they are completed. Anything new on your end?
Posted on: 8/20/2009 9:36 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Foamies! - RC Electric Foam Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9030513

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
Haven't been on in a while as other projects and builds have been taking up my time. Have yet to re-maiden the EDF wing. Still need to do a few more dopplers with different props on the stock Stryker with the Go Brushless Triple Stator with custom wind. After that data has been completed I'll be doing a few streamlining mods to the body while keeping the classic Stryker looks and then re-doppler to compare increases in speed to.
Posted on: 8/20/2009 9:34 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9030507

RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)
That's a VERY nice plane! Looks very scale. As a matter of fact, I thought it was twice that size until I looked at the last picture. Good job! My "scale" skills are getting better so I'm hoping my A-10 Warthog will give you a bit of competition, though I doubt I'll go as all out as you did. Great job.
Posted on: 8/3/2009 7:25 PM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Foamies! - RC Electric Foam Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8987304

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
Got to do some flying a few days ago. Took the EDF speed wing out for it's maiden. Too much downthrust so I'll have to adjust that before another attempt. I'm not going to make it pretty (cover it, etc) until it's proven it's self in the air. I've built too many scratch builds that had bad maidens so I've learned to bare bones them until they fly and then doll them up later. Meant to do some more dopplers on the Stryker before streamlining it but had too much fun flying my performance glider with 6' wingspan around. This plane has it all. It's got great speed (especialy for it's size) and will stunt with the best of them, yet it'll slow down to a crawl and float on thermals. Much like what a Stryker can do but this plane is even more prenounced in it's range of abilities. Since I've put an 11x8" APC folder on it (about the biggest folding prop this motor can handle while still maxing out the speed, drawing about 28 to 30 amps) this thing has really come alive. Speed and torque was good before on the 10x6 folder but is gobs better with the 11x8. She now just barely has unlimited vertical so it should be putting out near 50 ounces of thrust. This (35-36-1100 Turnigy) is pretty impressive for a $25 motor. About 1/4th the price of the Axi equiv. but it holds it's own in quality and efficiency. A lot of guys are throwing this motor on war birds and even a few Hobbyzone Supercubs. That's got to be crazy power for that plane. I'm getting my hands on a Scorpion motor since a friend has been liking the performance he's getting out of some custom winds with it. It'll be going on another performance glider build. Maybe I'll do a 7' wingspan on this one.
Posted on: 8/3/2009 7:15 PM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8987281

RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)
The Falcon foam I'm using is pretty slick, in that it doesn't have the bigger air pockets that you find in less dense foam. It is very stiff but it will bend before it breaks a good bit, much like EPP in those traits. Sorry you are having such a hard time finding foam. If you lived near me I'd say stop by and pick some up. I've got blocks of this stuff anywhere from 4 to 8" thick and around 5x3' or so. Look in the dumpsters behind furniture, appliance, or electronics stores and you might find some. To slice it down into thinner slabs the easiest method I've found is to lay to pieces of angle iron on the ground and tape them in place. Then I hold my bow down onto them and then slide the foam block across the floor to pass through it. Makes nice straight and flat cuts.
Posted on: 7/31/2009 9:27 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Foamies! - RC Electric Foam Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8978521

RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)
MICRO STRYKER AND GLASSED EDF SPEED WING Got a few pictures to show. First plane is the early rough cuts of a micro Stryker. Just need to sand to final scale detail and then install the micro gear. It'll also be getting scale hatches and motor mount to be as precise of a replica as possible. The other plane is the fiberglassed speed wing with 68mm 5 blade EDF and 4000 k/v Turnigy E500 outrunner. 40 Amp Suppo (Super Simple) ESC with added heat sink to play it safe, as initial peak WOT for the first 30 seconds or so should be around 44 amps before leveling off to around 38. Want to keep that thing cool, but I will cut down the height of the heat sink later. HXT900 servos. Both the ESC and RX stick out of the body a bit but will be covered with air pods to slick them out. EDF tube is a styrafoam cup holder that has been glassed for strength. Unit is zip tied to the body. All wires sunk. Will also be adding clay to the trailing exterior edge of the instake ring to further streamline that. I'll be creating a battery pod up front to silk that out. Both servo linkages will be covered with hollow v-stabs to slick them out, just like I did with my streamlined Stryker. Botched the cut on the elevons (cut all the way through by mistake) so I had to re-attach them with tape. No big deal.
Posted on: 7/30/2009 11:36 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Foamies! - RC Electric Foam Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8976278

RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)
Doesn't really matter if you spent a few extra bucks for your power supply. You'll more than make up that cost in the savings of making your own bodies and wings as soon as you build your first plane. Where do you plan to get your EPS foam? Home improvement stores usualy have white, blue, and pink. If the white is the same density found around here then I'd personaly use the pink or blue (blue is a little better than the pink), as they are more dense and sand nicer. I'm using EPS white foam called "Falcon foam" that a friend of a friend was throwing out at work, used in construction. It's even more dense than the pink or blue and is very strong. Often you can find this stuff in dumpsters at construction sites or in the dumpsters behind furniture or appliance stores as it's used to protect the product during shipping some times. My final settled on construction of builds, after playing with all kinds of strength mods, is to use one or two carbon tubes in the wing unless I'm fiberglassing it. Or, fiberglass rods will work. I've got a bunch of those from a patio umbrella found in the garbage. As for fuses I now just sheet two sides (left/right or top/bottom) with 1/8" balsa. This will greatly stiffen the foam and if it does break it usualy snaps clean for easy repair. For the dual boomer "So" plane I also sheeted two sides of the tail booms with 1/8" balsa. Much cheaper and better than using carbon tubes for the fuse/booms. I found that two carbon tubes in the wing near the front and back prevent the fuse from breaking through the wing on a hard crash. I'm using flat carbon at the leading and trailing edges of the h-stab to make a strong joining between it and the booms. Works great. Again, welcome to the thread and be sure to post some pictures of your tools and projects!
Posted on: 7/30/2009 11:33 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Foamies! - RC Electric Foam Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8976277

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0033FF]MICRO STRYKER AND GLASSED EDF SPEED WING[/color] Got a few pictures to show. First plane is the early rough cuts of a micro Stryker. Just need to sand to final scale detail and then install the micro gear. It'll also be getting scale hatches and motor mount to be as precise of a replica as possible. The other plane is the fiberglassed speed wing with 68mm 5 blade EDF and 4000 k/v Turnigy E500 outrunner. 40 Amp Suppo (Super Simple) ESC with added heat sink to play it safe, as initial peak WOT for the first 30 seconds or so should be around 44 amps before leveling off to around 38. Want to keep that thing cool, but I will cut down the height of the heat sink later. HXT900 servos. Both the ESC and RX stick out of the body a bit but will be covered with air pods to slick them out. EDF tube is a styrafoam cup holder that has been glassed for strength. Unit is zip tied to the body. All wires sunk. Will also be adding clay to the trailing exterior edge of the instake ring to further streamline that. I'll be creating a battery pod up front to silk that out. Both servo linkages will be covered with hollow v-stabs to slick them out, just like I did with my streamlined Stryker. Botched the cut on the elevons (cut all the way through by mistake) so I had to re-attach them with tape. No big deal.
Posted on: 7/30/2009 11:05 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8976233

RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)
Here's a website with tips and videos on hot wiring, although I think they make things a little more complex than they have to be. Like I said before, all the simple information on power supplies, tools, gauges of wire, wing jigs, etc, can be found in the first few pages of this thread, but if you would like to see how others are doing it and watch some live video then check out this link... http://www.utahflyers.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37
Posted on: 7/29/2009 12:09 PM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Foamies! - RC Electric Foam Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8973669

RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)
Did a little more testing. With 68mm 5 blade EDF, 40A Super Simple ESC (Add extra heat sink to be safe), Turnigy E500 4000k/v Outrunner, 25C 2250ma Rhino 3 Cell- 10V,37A,370W. 11V,38-39A,418-429W. This was after a minute or so off/on run time of full charged pack. Resting voltage of 11.73. Thrust in the 28 to 32 ounce range. I haven't measured air velocity yet but it's coming out at a very high velocity, more so than I think I've ever felt before. I haven't tested the initial amp draw of a fully charged pack yet but based on the averaging of several sources I think at initial full pack WOT it will suck down around 44 or so amps but quickly drop. Was what I was shooting for- Max thrust on 3 cell at no more than 40 or so amps to be "safe" on a 20 or 25C 2250ma 3 cell lipo. Not willing to risk more amps than that. I sanded the motor cup with a sanding stone on a drill to allow the motor's bell to spin free, and also melted out a motor wire channel in the side of the cup. Secure all your bolts/screws/nuts with something like nail polish or they WILL vibrate loose. Even after balancing the rotor the EDF will vibrate badly at a spot somewhere around 1/4th throttle but then smooths out at everything above that. I can live with that since I don't see myself running the throttle that low. I'll do WOT runs for no more than 20 seconds or so and then half throttle cool down runs to take it easy on the motor/esc/battery.
Posted on: 7/29/2009 11:43 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Foamies! - RC Electric Foam Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8973616

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0033FF]MORE NUMBERS ON THE HOBBY CITY 68MM 5 BLADE EDF, TURNIGY E500 4000 K/V OUTRUNNER...[/color] Did a little more testing. With 68mm 5 blade EDF, 40A Super Simple ESC (Add extra heat sink to be safe), Turnigy E500 4000k/v Outrunner, 25C 2250ma Rhino 3 Cell- 10V,37A,370W. 11V,38-39A,418-429W. This was after a minute or so off/on run time of full charged pack. Resting voltage of 11.73. Thrust in the 28 to 32 ounce range. I haven't measured air velocity yet but it's coming out at a very high velocity, more so than I think I've ever felt before. I haven't tested the initial amp draw of a fully charged pack yet but based on the averaging of several sources I think at initial full pack WOT it will suck down around 44 or so amps but quickly drop. Was what I was shooting for- Max thrust on 3 cell at no more than 40 or so amps to be "safe" on a 20 or 25C 2250ma 3 cell lipo. Not willing to risk more amps than that. I sanded the motor cup with a sanding stone on a drill to allow the motor's bell to spin free, and also melted out a motor wire channel in the side of the cup. Secure all your bolts/screws/nuts with something like nail polish or they WILL vibrate loose. Even after balancing the rotor the EDF will vibrate badly at a spot somewhere around 1/4th throttle but then smooths out at everything above that. I can live with that since I don't see myself running the throttle that low. I'll do WOT runs for no more than 20 seconds or so and then half throttle cool down runs to take it easy on the motor/esc/battery.
Posted on: 7/29/2009 11:34 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8973593

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0033CC]POSSIBLE EDF SETUP FOR "BEST THRUST" ON A 3 CELL...[/color] A while back I was looking at EDF and motor options on Hobby City's website for "best" thrust on a 3 cell lipo while keeping the amps to a relatively "safe" 40 or below for a 20 or 25C 2250ma pack. This is about the max I'm willing to pay in amps to hedge my bets. The two EDFs I settled on were the 2.5" 7 blade and 68MM 5 blade units. I originaly had a Turnigy 3900 k/v inrunner in the 68mm EDF installed in a highly experimental platform which never flew. The 2.5" is in another experimental platform that I have hopes of getting to fly in another maiden or two and some minor tweaking. The Turnigy inrunner will draw about 30 amps in the 68mm EDF. It will produce more thrust in the 7 blade 2.5" Hobby City EDF, so I installed it in that unit. The amp draw/thrust of that combo is the best I can find for it right now. Installed a Turnigy 4000 k/v E500 outrunner in the 68mm 5 blade EDF. Getting pretty much what everybody else is…around 37 amps at 10V. Looks like about what I was shooting at amp wise for "most thrust" on a 3 cell while keeping it at or around 40 amps. Using a 40 Amp Super Simple ESC. Feel of thrust and air speed on a static run is insane! A 15 to 20 second static WOT test finds ESC and motor a little warm but not hot. Have seen similar reports. For example, one guy is getting 28.8 ounces of thrust, 440 watts at 44 amps. ½ throttle he’s getting 250 watts and 18 ounces of thrust. All using 20C 2250ma pack. The averaging of numbers from several sources jives pretty well with my mine. Had to sand out EDF’s motor cup to allow motor’s bell to spin freely. Also cut out a wire channel in side of motor cup for the motor wires. It's going into the fiberglassed wing I posted pictures of. It may well be my fastest platform yet. Since the 3900k/v inrunner produces more thrust in the 2.5" unit than it does in the 68mm, I'm wondering if anybody has tried to fit the E500 outrunner in the 2.5" EDF. If the amps are tolerable and the pattern follows I would figure it would produce even more thrust than it does in the 68mm, maybe being the ultimate combo on a 3 cell if the amps don't red line the pack.
Posted on: 7/28/2009 11:55 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8967812

RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)
Yea, I'm working on the wing with the 68mm EDF. I'll post some photos soon. Here's some info I've been sorting through re-posted... A while back I was looking at EDF and motor options on Hobby City's website for "best" thrust on a 3 cell lipo while keeping the amps to a relatively "safe" 40 or below for a 20 or 25C 2250ma pack. This is about the max I'm willing to pay in amps to hedge my bets. The two EDFs I settled on were the 2.5" 7 blade and 68MM 5 blade units. I originaly had a Turnigy 3900 k/v inrunner in the 68mm EDF installed in a highly experimental platform which never flew. The 2.5" is in another experimental platform that I have hopes of getting to fly in another maiden or two and some minor tweaking. The Turnigy inrunner will draw about 30 amps in the 68mm EDF. It will produce more thrust in the 7 blade 2.5" Hobby City EDF, so I installed it in that unit. The amp draw/thrust of that combo is the best I can find for it right now. Installed a Turnigy 4000 k/v E500 outrunner in the 68mm 5 blade EDF. Getting pretty much what everybody else is…around 37 amps at 10V. Looks like about what I was shooting at amp wise for "most thrust" on a 3 cell while keeping it at or around 40 amps. Using a 40 Amp Super Simple ESC. Feel of thrust and air speed on a static run is insane! A 15 to 20 second static WOT test finds ESC and motor a little warm but not hot. Have seen similar reports. For example, one guy is getting 28.8 ounces of thrust, 440 watts at 44 amps. ½ throttle he’s getting 250 watts and 18 ounces of thrust. All using 20C 2250ma pack. The averaging of numbers from several sources jives pretty well with my mine. Had to sand out EDF’s motor cup to allow motor’s bell to spin freely. Also cut out a wire channel in side of motor cup for the motor wires. It's going into the fiberglassed wing I posted pictures of. It may well be my fastest platform yet. Since the 3900k/v inrunner produces more thrust in the 2.5" unit than it does in the 68mm, I'm wondering if anybody has tried to fit the E500 outrunner in the 2.5" EDF. If the amps are tolerable and the pattern follows I would figure it would produce even more thrust than it does in the 68mm, maybe being the ultimate combo on a 3 cell if the amps don't red line the pack. By the way, the 2835 3900 k/v inrunner in the 68mm EDF pulls around 32 amps, around 630gr of thrust, and 300+ watts. I could be wrong, but from memory in the 2.5� EDF it draws about 39 amps, but I know it provides higher thrust.
Posted on: 7/27/2009 2:25 PM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Foamies! - RC Electric Foam Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8968000

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
By the way, the 2835 3900 k/v inrunner in the 68mm EDF pulls around 32 amps, around 630gr of thrust, and 300+ watts. I could be wrong, but from memory in the 2.5� EDF it draws about 39 amps, but I know it provides higher thrust.
Posted on: 7/27/2009 2:16 PM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8967991

RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)
Glad to see some new faces and activity on this thread again! I see you've already bought a power supply that seems to be working for you so that's good if your happy with it. The first page or two contains all the photos/info on the best/cheapest power supply, a car battery charger from Harbor Tool & Freight for about $30 or so. It will do 55 amps at 12V, so using this setting with a wall dimmer will allow you to achieve the right temperture for just about any cutting tool, big or small. It's various other amp settings and the 6V option also give possibilites with various tools and no need for the dimmer. I find a 40" bow with "stainless steel" nichochrome fishing leader (gauges listed in the first few pages) works well with no need for the dimmer and the charger set at 55 amps, 12V, boost/start mode. Sometimes the charging mode will help control the heat of various wire tools without the need for a dimmer, as it will turn on and off over and over as it thinks the non-existant battery has been charged. The "H" style bow and table cutter that instructions can also be found for on the first few pages are a must to make things real easy in cutting out bodies and wings. I'll have more responses to make when I get back on. Getting kicked off computer for now.
Posted on: 7/27/2009 1:06 PM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Foamies! - RC Electric Foam Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8967828

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
The mods I did for the above streamlined bird can be found at these two links in the old thread... http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4790624/mpage_8/key_/tm.htm http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4790624/mpage_17/key_/tm.htm [color=#0033CC]WIND TUNNEL...[/color] Another project that I'm working on is a wind tunnel box to be able to visualy see what the air is doing over plane surfaces. I originaly intended this for my scratch built EPS experiments but it will be interesting to see what the Stryker body is doing as well. This project will take a while as I'm slowly garbage picking the parts...two vacuum cleaner motors for entry/exit, wood to build the box, and perhaps glass from a screen door for viewing from the side. I may just use window film insulating material for the view window. Haven't decided yet. White smoke is generated and introduced into the box to help reveal the airflow. When done I'll post some plans. [color=#0033CC]PRIOR BUILD PHOTOS FROM THE FIRST THREAD, AND COVERING A FUSE WITH CARBON, FIBERGLASS, OR KEVLAR[/color] What follows are some pictures from the previous thread of various Strykers people have built. For more info refer to it. Notice the copper/grey bird in the third from last and last photo. It's covered in Kevlar and carbon fiber cloth. Talk about bullet proof! As I've said in the past (post 61, initial fiberglassing photos+ info), fiberglassing the belly of a Stryker should be more than enough strength for extreme speeds, more so than carbon tubes...provided you use a good epoxy like the West Systems listed with build steps listed in the last two or three pages in this thread. Link to his build steps with carbon/kelvar are here... http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4790624/mpage_13/key_/tm.htm [color=#0033CC]PROPER CARBON TUBE PLACEMENT TO AVOID PROBLEMS[/color] First picture is of how the carbon tubes should be mounted in a Stryker build, curved to the tips and touching the ends of the stock rods. The tube I used in this thread was too short to illustrate this so I thought I'd dig up this photo from the old thread to show the concept better. The extra tube length at the wing tips was cut off later. I left it too long to aid in holding it bent in place via a vice at both ends. Notice that the carbon tube is flush with the front surface of the body where the nose mounts. This, along with filling the front empty chamber with Gorilla glue, helps avoid "nose up" syndrome" after a crash. It still allows the nose to come off in a crash via it's magnets without chunking foam, and helps to absorb momentum and deflect the body front a straight ground hit. Gluing the nose on or extending this tube further into the nose will destroy the front from force combined with leverage (the further this tube extends out the front the more leverage a hit can force on it) and I wouldn't recommend it. I've learned that one from personal experience in the past, and also learned that not extending it to where it is in the photo made the fuse more prone to damage as well.
Posted on: 7/20/2009 1:21 PM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8948563

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0033CC]MORE STREAMLINING...[/color] I have been doing some dopplers with various props on the Go Brushless triple stator 4 turn WYE motor. Once done I plan to streamline the plane a bit while still keeping the classic Stryker looks. When those mods are done I'll doppler it with the same props again and post all that for comparisons. It should give people a good idea of expected MPH increase with these mods versus a stock body. The mods will be as follows: Nose sharpened. Remove fake air intake humps. Airfoil sanded down. The other mod will be to improve the streamlining of the finger holds. These depressions create quite a bit of drag. In my streamlined bird from last year I had covered these but I'm no good at throwing the thing like a boomerang. I then tried covering them with an elastic material that would allow for inserting your fingers but would flex back once launched. This worked but it was a real pain to glue it in place and didn't hold up well. One workable idea would be to sand a sloaping entry and exit of the finger holds to help guide the airflow without a vortex being created like they will stock. After some thought I think the best solution is to insert fine spounge material into the holds. This will allow you to push your fingers in for launch and it will then flex back and streamline them once launched. Keep in mind that the other important mod to lower the drag a good bit is something I've already done and do on all my Stryker builds, using a rocket nose cone (a spinner with PVC will work well too) mounted in the stock mount to help guide airflow around and over it. I filled in the slight air gap between it and the mount with some clay to further slick it out. Of course, if you want to go even further with streamlining there's the one I did in the old thread. Here's a few pictures but you can refer back to it for the various modifications.
Posted on: 7/20/2009 1:12 PM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8948424

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
Just ran across another excellent and free motor charting site with numerous motors already listed. Check it out below... http://www.brantuas.com/ezcalc/dma1.asp
Posted on: 7/20/2009 12:27 PM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8948825

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]FIBERGLASSING VERSUS CARBON, & STREAMLINING AN AIRFRAME[/color] The easiest way to increase the speed of a Stryker is by slicking it's profile down, rather than throwing more and more watts at it. There also comes a point with these speeds where adding more carbon tubes no longer is the best solution, when a pratical amount of carbon tubes used costs more and has less structural strength than fiberglassing. The following pictures are of a delta wing extreme speed EDF platform I'm working on. A friend had made a few of these bodies and gave them to some of the local flyers and me. With some investigating the motor/EDF combo I plan to install in it is about the most powerful I can find while still using a 3 cell pack, while keeping the amps to a relatively safe (I hope) limit for high 25 or 30C lipos. The body was fiberglassed using the epoxy and methods found in this thread. It still needs to be sanded a bit to silk a few imperfections. You could easily sand down a Stryker body using an orbital or belt sander to achieve a profile like this, but this body was hotwired from foam for zero cost. That's 20 pounds of weight being suspended by the wing tips with virtualy no flex. From the feel of how solid it was supporting the weight, I suspect I could have doubled it. As I've said in the past, even just glassing the belly of a Stryker should provide more rigidity than carbon tubes. Off topic, I went through the thread to edit the format some. For now on key topics will be high lighted in blue, just to try to enhance the concept of easy to reference condensed Darkside material all in one place. The forum would only allow me to edit messages so far back, though.
Posted on: 7/20/2009 11:18 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8928718

RE: Here's A Simple & FREE First Foam Build Plan! (Part 2)
Thought I'd post this to bump the thread back up. Hope everything is OK with Fisher and Saucerman. Haven't heard from you guys in a while, not to mention Ken. There comes a point with these speeds where adding more carbon tubes no longer is the best solution, when a pratical amount of carbon tubes used costs more and has less structural strength than fiberglassing. The following pictures are of a delta wing extreme speed EDF platform I'm working on. A friend had made a few of these bodies and gave them to some of the local flyers and me. With some investigating the motor/EDF combo I plan to install in it is about the most powerful I can find while still using a 3 cell pack, while keeping the amps to a relatively safe (I hope) limit for high 25 or 30C lipos. The body was fiberglassed using the epoxy and methods found in this thread. It still needs to be sanded a bit to silk a few imperfections. You could easily sand down a Stryker body using an orbital or belt sander to achieve a profile like this, but this body was hotwired from foam for zero cost. That's 20 pounds of weight being suspended by the wing tips with virtualy no flex. From the feel of how solid it was supporting the weight, I suspect I could have doubled it.
Posted on: 7/20/2009 10:58 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Foamies! - RC Electric Foam Aircraft"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8948614

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]JUST HOW USEFUL IS PITCH SPEED?[/color] Most know that pitch speed often doesn't relate to the actual MPH the plane does in the air, more so when you have a draggy air frame. Another variable is lost efficiency from what is "on paper" versus what the prop is actually doing in the air. However, the sleeker the airframe the closer pitch and actual flight speed get. In fact, many find that the two can be VERY close on a streamlined bird, as static tests versus the altered "in air" variables that come into play can pretty much cancel each other out. On a stock Stryker airframe these numbers won't be nearly as close, but you can still use a formula to get a very good idea of exactly what the expected speed will be based on the pitch speed. It involves a little math and a percentage based on the actual MPH achieved in comparison to the pitch speed from static runs. You can then apply this formula to various prospective prop choices and get not just in the ball park but probably right on base with what to expect before even flying the plane. I'll go more into this and provide some numbers along with examples when the updated motor chart is posted.
Posted on: 7/17/2009 10:33 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8940852

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]INSTALLING PROPS, AND A BIT OF INFORMATION ON SELECTING THE BEST SIZE[/color] The prop's size numbers should face the front of the plane regardless if it's set up as a pusher or a tractor, then any 2 of the 3 motor wires are switched to get the motor running in the proper direction. There are Pusher versions of APC props in various sizes and the prop numbers will still face the front of the plane on those. These are the exact same prop as the "normal" E prop except that the rotation is reversed, and in my opinion are only useful when running twin motor setups. For example, on my P38 scratch built I'm running an APC 8x6E and an APC 8x6P. The rotation of the motors are reverse of each other and this helps to null out any prop torque. If both motors were rotating the same direction the plane would tend to want to pull or roll to one side...mostly at launch. Ever notice how some planes tend to roll or pull a bit to one side when first thrown? When selecting prop sizes you first have to ask yourself what you are shooting for. Is top speed primary regardless of if it will have enough thrust to do unlimited verticle? In general you'll want a smaller prop with higher pitch. If unlimited verticle is important then you may have to trade off a little pitch for diameter. Remember that pitch speed indicates potential plane speed, while thrust indicates verticle ability. There is a lot of bleed over from one to the other but you get the idea.  As I said, you are going to need about 1.2 times more thrust than plane weight to achieve unlimited V. The game winner is when you are using a motor where the best prop size for maximum speed is also the best prop size for maximum thrust, or at least has way more than enough thrust to push the plane vertical with ease. That indicates that the motor is well matched to your platform. Keep that in mind when mulling over the motor chart I'll be posting, which I'm slowly plugging away at. It's packed with important data and is organized to quickly compare the performance characteristics of the various motors.
Posted on: 7/13/2009 10:56 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8866846

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]MORE DETAILS ON INSTALLING OUTRUNNERS IN THE F27C MOUNT[/color] I think you are saying that you are trying to mount the motor inside the mount like the stock inrunner would be? No, the motor should hang off the back of the mount and not inside it. Follow the instructions on page 1 or 2 of this thread or look at the old thread in the first few pages for more pictures on this method. Remember that the D and other motors of this style allow the prop shaft to stick out either end of the motor. Simply loosen the set screw(s) that hold the motor shaft to move it. You'll want the prop shaft sticking out the bell end of the motor and the mount end (of course) mounted to the back of the 27C motor mount. Any other unclear questions just ask. Quick Tip: You have to use allen bolts for this style motor as they need to thread into the motor's mounting plate from the back side, in that they will pass through the disc you've glued into the 27C motor mount and out the back...into the back of the motor's mounting plate. Make darn sure that your allen bolts are not so long as to dig into the windings inside the motor! That's a quick way to destroy it and need a re-wind. The 2409-12 or the 2409-18 would be an excellent motor for the Corsair. If you want to lean towards the speed side use the 12. If you want to lean more towards the torque side use the 18. If memory serves (check and verify) the 12 flies great on a 9x4.5SF prop to tame the speed down a bit and increase torque, providing a perfect mixture of both while keeping the amps lower. If you want insane speed and torque then the 8x6 APC E (or even bigger on the D, like an 8x7 or 9x6 or 7 or so) will do that but it will red line the motor, so make sure you check it for heat after a flight. It needs good airflow to maintain those kinds of watts. The 18 on an 8x7 or so (use a APC Sport (Gas) prop if you can't find an E) will provide I think it's best speed and is fairly decent at that. Again, check the specs and what other people are using, or plug it's numbers into the motor chart link I provided to get an idea of amp draw and prop speeds.
Posted on: 7/13/2009 10:54 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8846718

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]WHY PAY FOR SOMETHING TO MEASURE SPEED WHEN A FREE METHOD CAN BE MORE SAFE AND MORE ACCURATE[/color] Here's my thinking of devices to gauge plane speed: Onboard sensor...You have to pay for that and it's only extra weight/hassle on the plane. I also have read that these devices can be inaccurate, especially if not mounted perfectly. Radar guns...Again, costs money. I've also read some horror stories where planes were lost (and it didn't sound too safe) as the pilot tried to fly the plane directly at the gun. Doppler...Very accurate from what I've read and of course it's free. Also less hassle and safer to sample speeds with. A friend of mine had built a plane much like my performance glider in the Hotliner sort'a style. He was impressed by the dive speeds it achieved with the prop stopped and folded back. He wanted to gauge the speed but of course with the motor off there is no sound to doppler. The solulation was to attach a whistle to the plane to produce sound. I don't know if he ever ended up trying that.
Posted on: 7/13/2009 10:53 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8840838

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]THE OLD DEBATE CONTINUES...WHO AND WHAT DO PEOPLE TRUST WHEN EVALUATING POTENTIAL MOTORS TO BUY[/color] If you believe that the only way to evaluate an actual motor is by testing it yourself or only using data from those that you consider to be the trusted few that's fine. Happy for you. Glad it works for you. However, there are many people who do not have the time or money to do such a thing. In that case, it's more than logical to compare numbers from a wide base of sources and then base your choice of possible options on the averages of that data. What this means is don't rely on one person, one chart (including this one), or one source to be the end all and be all. Am I sure of all the data? Of course not. In fact, I've noted three mistakes so far where columns were shifted by mistake. Thus why I said this was the "rough and very early beginnings" of this chart. As with anything in life or the internet, one needs to investigate further on their own and prove things for themselves. I make no claims to the validity of any data, and one should always seek out other sources to compare against. For instance, if the amp draw of a motor on a certain prop seems a little low to me, I'll make darn sure to read the numbers myself on the bench. Anybody who doesn't do this with any new motor or prop is asking for trouble. I know of factory specs that would make the motor go nuclear if you used the suggested prop size. I didn't even list the max watt raitings of the motors for lack of space, so it's a good idea to dig further when considering what the motor is capable of handling. An excellent way to start is at least knowing in general where to begin. This chart at the very least gives me an idea of what motors are of interest to me and possible prop choices/expected amp draw to start with. I prefer averages from several sources and the chart does this (and will more as a wider sampling base is averaged) for me, rather than relying on any single source or individual. As said in the disclaimer I've listed above the motor chart, trusted numbers from any one individual, chart (including this one), or source, no matter how much you know them, is not a good way to predict expected results. Many fields use a wide base of sources and then average the results. I prefer this method, as even something as simple as pack condition can throw off numbers greatly. On the other hand, as more source body data is available numbers far outside the average will be removed, as this is a good indicator of invalid numbers. Hence, what is listed will evolve and change as more averages and norms are accumlated. What I'm saying here is that even though the numbers I'm posting are averages from several sources, one should ALWAYS seek out several sources of information before making any decisions. I'm not going to get into this old and tired debate again with you, so this is the last I'll have to say on the matter. I'm glad your methods work for you and I won't try to convince you otherwise, as I hope you'll offer me the same courtesy.
Posted on: 7/13/2009 10:51 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8877216

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON A WATT METER![/color] Thanks, and that's exactly the idea behind it...having at least some numbers all in one spot to begin comparisons. Proving that data for one's self is still one's responsibility. I'll soon be updating the chart with more data and motors, making some corrections, etc. To carry the concept further, I'll soon (maybe today) be posting a "How To" on how I measure amp draw, wattage, and efficiency of my motors. As with other things in this thread, this method will save you from wasting money on a watt meter. A watt meter, for the most part, is just a glorified multimeter that is designed to be easy and convenient, or for some who may not know there way around electronics. With a little know how (which will be provided for this project), one can make what is called a shunt and use a multimeter to read the amp draw of the motor. If you already have a multimeter laying around the house the price is real good...free versus $60 or more for a watt meter. It's a very simple project, consisting of a length of metal and soldering some Deans plugs here and there. Buying a multi or amp meter that can measure high DC currents can be expensive just like watt meters. Often most multimeters can only measure DC currents in the 10 amps or less range. Anything higher normaly requires expensive equipment. In HVAC (Heating & Air Conditioning) 90% of a service tech's job is troubleshooting electrical problems, such as motors, compressors, sensors, etc, so much of what I learned in school leaned heavily on the electrical side. One neat little example of how to work with the equipment you have, this time in measuring very low amp draws, is by winding a coil of wire around a wire to measure the amp draw of a gas valve (this is how the anticaptor in your thermostat is calibrated), allowing you to use an amp meter that doesn't have the lower resolution required. The same thinking, in a way, can be applied to measuring high amp draws of brushless motors while using existing equipment. I for one do not need anymore somewhat redundant test equipment laying around the garage, and if it costs me nothing to adapt existing equipment it's a win win all the way around. This continues with some of themes of this thread...cheap but good electronics and lipos, free motor charting software versus paying for a program, speed readings at zero cost versus buying a radar gun or speed measuring electronics, etc.
Posted on: 7/13/2009 10:48 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8894544

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]SLOPE SOARING STRYKER![/color] As promised, here are a few pictures of a streamlined Stryker that I use for slope soaring. Originaly a friend had used this bird with a motor to reduce the drag of a Stryker airframe. He later removed the motor and esc and installed a 5V nicad pack (to power the RX and servos) and made it a slope soarer. He gave me this plane to motivate me to come with him and some others and try some sloping. It is a lot of fun and some times on a windy day I head out to the hill overlooking a valley to ride the wind with this thing. Notice the vertical stabs have been moved to the wing tips. This increases stability while still allowing them to be smaller than they would have to be if mounted in the stock locations.
Posted on: 7/13/2009 10:47 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8894577

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]GLUE COMPARISONS, AND HOT GLUE/GORILLA GO HEAD TO HEAD[/color] Over the years with my scratch builds I've tried many types of glue...Epoxy, Gorilla, Foam Safe CA, "Hold The Foam" (A foam safe glue), Shoe Goo, and so on. I use epoxy for gluing small areas where Gorilla glue might foam out. It's strong, foam safe, but heavy in larger quantities. Back in the days before Gorilla glue I would fill the carbon tube channels on a Stryker build with it and gain a good bit of weight as a result. I've also tried filling the tube channels with Hold The Foam with similar results. Foam Safe CA doesn't seem to have nearly as good of a hold as Epoxy or regular CA, which of course can't be used on most foams...but works on Z-Foam. Shoe Goo will also melt most foams but works well where you need strength but some flexibility without cracking. I some times use it to hold magnets to the canopy or other similar situations. In the past I've used hot glue to do things such as hold vertical fins on scratch builds. After a few in flight issues with it on hot days I began to suspect that it was losing it's strength under high stress situations. A few similar experiences by friends caused me to stop using it in builds. I suspected that the temperture on warm days was softening the glue, so I decided to experiment with it and also to compare it's traits to Gorilla Glue. What follows is a test of the two. The first two pictures show the weight difference. As you can see, even with less hot glue in the measuring cup compared to the Gorilla glue which has foamed over the hot glue weighs .6 ounces more. Gorilla glue is hard to beat in weight by volume thanks to it's foaming action, suspending air pockets in the form of bubbles into it's structure. This foaming quality also makes it extremely strong in that it will foam out and force it's self into the gaps and pockets of the foam's structure. The next test I did was to compare the strength of both glues, suspending a 2 1/2 pound weight from wood dowl rods that have been glued with both glues to a block of foam. As you can see from the pictures both glues were able to hold the weight with no problem with a room temperture of 76 degrees. I next slowly and evenly applied heat to the hot glue using a heat gun to gradually raise it's temperture. When the glue temperture reached into the 90's the dowl rod began to seperate from the foam. When the dowl rod suffered catasrophic failure, it's rear end broke free while the front still held somewhat once the weight fell off. I picked up my temperture sensor and took several tempertures of the glue. It ranged mostly around the 100 degree range, though to be fair it took about ten seconds to situate my camera and temperture sensor and begin taking readings, so final temperture was probably a bit above 100 degrees. The strength to temperature relationship of hot glue directed related. While I would trust it's ability on days in the 70's, when the mercury rises into the 80's or 90's I would be cautious with it. The Gorilla glue showed no sensitivity to heating to these levels. One of the advantages of using hot glue is it's ability to set up within minutes. However, the new formulation of Gorilla glue takes about thirty to fourty minutes to dry at reasonable room tempertures.
Posted on: 7/13/2009 10:46 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8897533

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]BUILD A $3 WATT METER![/color] I have the $3 Watt Meter done. I want to thank Rich for an excellent thread and great, cheap, and simple mod using this multimeter from Harbor Tool & Freight. My only minor and modest contribution is a few pictures, schematic, and modding steps to help make it as simple as possible for those who know little or no electronics. First picture is of the meter ready to be opened. Before doing this you’ll need to check the amp draw of a load using the stock test leads so that you can use this as a known reference load to calibrate the unit. I set the meter dial to 10 amps DC, hooked it up to a nimh/nicad charger, and set the unit to a charging rate of 1.5 amps. My load is my nicad TX battery pack. As you can see from the third picture both numbers jive very well. The configuration of the amp meter needs to be in series with the supply and load. Meaning, take the positive wire from your power source (my charger) and connect it to the positive test lead of the meter. Now take the negative lead from the meter and hook it up to the positive wire going to the load (my TX). The negative wire from my charger then is connected directly to the negative input lead on the TX. Next picture (second one) is of the opened case. You can see the shunt marked with an arrow. Once you have your reference load figured out you can begin wiring things up. Solder red and black wires to their perspective terminals on your Deans Ultra plugs. I used 14 gauge wire to handle the amp draw of my planes up to the 30 or 40 amp range or so. This is the same wire I use to connect my ESCs to my lipos on my planes. If reading higher amps you’d probably need to go to 12 gauge or larger diameter wire, or at least keep your testing to seconds at a time to avoid false readings or over heating the wire. I twisted the two black wires together and also twisted the lead from a 1K resistor (other sizes will work too) to this, then soldered them together. After this I slide some heat shrink tubing over the wires and out of the way for now to avoid any heat, then soldered the other end of the resistor to an existing solder point on the circuit board. This spot is noted in the picture. Once done slide the tubing all the way down and use your soldering iron to heat and shrink it. Now take your positive (red) wire from the male Dean’s (Source) and solder it to the shunt. Anywhere will do but best to avoid any calibration grooves done from the factory (see notes in the picture). Now it’s time to calibrate the unit and solder the other red (load) wire to the shunt as well. I used a mirror so I could easily see the display on the meter, as it’s flipped upside down to allow easy access to the shunt. It’s also a good idea to tin the wire first with solder so that you won’t have to add more when soldering it on, avoiding mis adjusted numbers. Slide the wire lead across the shunt with decent pressure to avoid mis calibration by way of induced resistance. This way when you find the proper spot your solid solder connection won’t throw the numbers off should the resistance be reduced. The stock meter (even though it says 10) will read up to 20 amps. This mod will be good up to 200 amps (with the right gauge of wire used), but the display can not handle numbers this high. The placement of the shunt wires properly will reduce the numbers on the display by a factor of 10. What this means is that I want my 1.5 amp reference load to now read .150 on the display. Thus, 30 amps will now read 3.0 on the unit. Also note that the display may indicate negative numbers. Just ignore that because it only means the meter was hooked up in reverse polarity in the circuit. It won’t matter at all. Once you’ve found the spot (pushing with decent force to insure a good connection) where the meter reads what your source is saying hold the wire exactly in place and heat it so that the solder flows and connects it securely to the shunt. Re-check your amp reading. If it’s off you can add a little solder between the wires on the shunt, or groove the shunt to go the other way. I’d rather just unsolder the wire and re-adjust myself. By the way, if in the initial (stock) calibration check using the stock leads your meter numbers differ greatly from what your source is saying, I would try another source to compare. If the meter still isn’t real close then I’d suspect the meter calibration to be off. Since my charger and the meter were both giving me the same numbers they are confirming that both are calibrated properly from the factory. It’s also important to note that amp draws within tenths of an amp of each other are close enough. As somebody said this isn’t computing a rocket’s orbit so you don’t need to be exactly percise. The resistor tapped into the negative wires is to allow voltage readings to take place, protecting the meter from damage as you flip the dial around. With voltage and amps read you can then compute watts…Volts X Amps = Watts. I mostly go by the amps to make sure props are within specs of my motors. As I’ve read this unit can be more accurate than commercial watt meters that cost $60 or more. Not only is this a great mod by Rich and a cleaner install (less wires hanging out) than my homemade shunt, but it’s a bit more accurate. In the trash with the old shunt!
Posted on: 7/13/2009 10:44 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8919188

RE: Stryker Mods From The Darkside Part 2 (Bullet Proof A Stryker)
[color=#0000CC]WE HAVE A WINNER![/color] The watt meter is taken. A local flyer asked for it first so he gets it. It's finished and reads exactly as the other unit does, dead on accurate. Since a few people inquired about it, I might just make a few more in the near future and donate them to those who aren't into soldering or other things with electronics. Those who don't already own a watt meter, that is. Don't rush me on this, though, as I've got plenty of other projects on the workbench right now. [color=#0000CC]DARKSIDE ISN'T JUST RC, IT'S A FRAME OF MIND[/color] My neighbors has his own dark side project that he has been building for about two years or so now off and on. He scraps for side money and uses that to buy his parts, so he's got pretty much zero cost in the thing. He's got receipts for everything so he can get a tittle and make it street legal. Ford rear end. Chevy 408 motor. The drum you see standing up is going to be the gas tank, and will lay on it's side in the back where you see the curved strips of metal. That's also where the radiator is going, along with dual electric fan motors. Notice he put the alternator on the side of the differential, as he didn't want that sticking way off to the side on the motor. He's got an emergency brake lever from an old Ford, a master cylinder I think from an old Nova, and so on. He plans to cover the fenders, floor boards, and tank with aluminum diamond plate. He's weighed the front end with the motor installed to insure he wasn't going to overload the motorcycle front end, and also filled the aluminum wheel with epoxy just to be safe. I keep telling him that unless he doubles the size of the wing it's never going to fly. [:D]
Posted on: 7/13/2009 10:43 AM by Author "critterhunter" in the forum "Park Flyers & Backyard Flyers"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8921608