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RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
Hi Guys, sorry for long time, no speak...been out of the loop for a while...travelling with work and moving house. Just settling into new home (perfectly placed right beside a marina) and building a new home workshop with separate spray booth/ laminating room and engineering shop.Will be a few weeks before I am back into build..but have no fear..I will continue. Be updating soon. Cheers...Gary
Posted on: 10/26/2009 6:01 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9203938
RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log
Thankyou TBK for detailed insight, you cannot go past hands on experience. I recall thinking you had done well with a handlay to keep weight so low. Seems that your carbon costs are extreme (although I am not sure of the Cnd $ value), over here a 3yrd lenght 6 oz twill 54" will set me back around $70 US. I like the kevlar join idea, actually toying with the idea of a kevlar/ carbon hull layup...excepting kevlar is a bugger to sand and not sure if I like the idea of a having to mess around with a difficult hull/deck trim to fit. For my first boat I think I will go with two three oz cloth layed in bias and a 6 oz carbon for my first set of hulls...a little more weight than you used for sure but i would like to trade laminate stiffness for bulkheads. A tip for you if you are having probs with carbon weave moving while cutting etc.. I use 3m 77 spray..a very light mist over the fabric before cutting will solve a world of headaches. Or/and you can spray a very light mist into/ onto your mould and effectively glue your cloth in position. It will not affect the resin uptake into weave. Cheers for the info TBK Gary
Posted on: 8/22/2009 8:33 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9035339
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
Hi Guys, news to me you can't get epoxy gelcoat, I have been buying it and using it off the shelf for a few years now, Mart I am not the oracle...but as i understand it, the term gelcoat is not unique to polyester, However I use the term loosely and to expand on my earlier post re epoxy gelcoats...There are many products that will serve as a gelcoat..ie..the barrier protective coat in between the mould surface and the first resin laminate. This includes polyester and vinylester products...but......2 pack epoxy paint sprayed in the female mould will serve as a excellent gelcoat- of course only possible if you are laying up with epoxy( and this is available in a huge range of colours including clear with UV inhibitors). Which brings me to your post TBK, yep..you do not want clear epoxy in the sun- not a longterm answer.You could make your own epoxy gelcoats, they are basically composed of pigments, resin, thickeners and toughening agents. I prefer to leave this to the experts however. In my experience epoxy gelcoats have a much much higher viscosity than poly gelcoats, therefore two things about epoxy gelcoat..spraying is not an option and as two brushed on coats are really needed for complete coverage/ build depth, it builds up a very heavy thick coat. As opposed to poly gelcoat which is easily sprayed and therefore you have better control over coat applicaton. This then raises a critical issue in RC Multi's.."weight"...polyester and epoxy gelcoats add significant weight to a hull. For the building of female "moulds" polyester or epoxy gelcoat is the absolute best option. The epoxy gelcoat i use provides a very tough and solid layer on my female mould face. But...for the actual hull/ decks etc..the use of thinly sprayed epoxy paint ( and I would suggest two light coats into the female mould) will provide a high gloss exterior finish in the colour of your choice..no further painting/ filling/fairing required and therefore assisting in a lighter final hull weight. And you are quite right about vinylester Mart, in fact if I was wanting to provide a easily sandable highgloss primer finish (ready to custom paint straight out of the mould) , then I would spray duratec surfacing primer into the female mould and lay into it with epoxy resin. I have not checked a datasheet recently on Vinyester resin, and while I do know it can offer better strength than polyester and is a excellent product for repairing damaged polyester laminates,I would seriously doubt it would have the "HDUL" of elevated temp post cured epoxy. Bear in mind Mart that I am refering to multi builds in this post. I do use heavy coats of gelcoat in my gas boat moulds, as the gelcoat offers a tough protective layer and extra weight is not such a big deal...and I do give my gas boats a thrashing!!. Having said all of this, I should point out..."I hate solvents", they stink, they are often hazardous and they are responsible for shrinkage in paint- resin etc.., to avoid these three enemies I use solvent free products as much as possible. As such the primary ingredient in my laminating arsenal is solvent free epoxy. Cheers guys...Gary
Posted on: 8/22/2009 8:05 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9035296
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
Hi Mart, I would agree with you that there are some strong advantages with polyester, its quicker, cheaper for sure. But having spent a few years in a large laminating shop has made me very sensitive to the pungent sweetly sickly smell of it and I just do not like to work with it. With respect to polyester gelcoat options, there is a huge range of epoxy gelcoat options which give a high gloss finish out of the mould, just pick up any manufacturers 2 pack epoxy paint colour chart. The big advantage with epoxies versus poly's on yachts (multis) is minimal weight/ maximum strength..but as you well know weight is not such a concern on gas boats and polyester strength can be achieved through layup technique and composite design. And back to PVA, I agree with you and do not use it much any more , unless i have a non critical finish requirement. An example of this is a few years ago I built a couple of carbon vehicle bonnets ("hoods"- for our US friends out there) . I built a inner liner mould for under the bonnet, there was no requirement for a high gloss finish and as such I sprayed PVA directly onto the mould (with out any other wax treatment) and then built a unit from the mould, very quick and very easy. This is the type of application where it is suitable for me, of course when moulding over a male mould it is also a brilliant solution. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/20/2009 11:48 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9032619
RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log
Hi TBK, now I am very close to the final hull laminating stage and buying in some supplies, I wanted to check some details with you. I understand you built one glass version with 2 x 4oz E glass cloth / epoxy and a carbon version with 1x 6oz carbon twill and 1 x 2 oz e glass cloth I was very interested as to comparisons in the two versions with respect to strength / weight / oil canning tendencies etc?. I think you room temp cured your hulls?? I was planning on 2 x 3oz glass and a 6oz carbon twill or maybe 1 x 6oz carbon twill and one 3 oz kevlar cloth or maybe 1 x 6oz carbon twill and 1 x 3oz carbon cloth or maybe.....???. If you were to build another , what would you do on the third set of mouldings. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/20/2009 11:21 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9032563
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
[quote]ORIGINAL: TBK Gary Great progress on your moulds. I would concur that using epoxy is the way to go. No smell, no shrinkage, harder and stronger overall. I also used a PVA mould release agent (and wax) and never had any problems getting the shells off my male plugs. It just sprays on in a couple of light coats. The added advantage of the PVA is that it provides a super smooth finish and tends to help the resin flow easier against the mould surface, avoiding any imperfections. This is not as critical for shells made from a male plug but it did leave a perfect finish on the internal of the shell when I pulled from the mould. Good to know if you are making female moulds. TBK [/quote] Hi TBK, Gotta love that epoxy mate!. Its a funny thing about PVA..Many in the RC world seem to apply PVA over wax ( and I guess over a bare wood surface maybe this would make sense- but only to seal the timber), But over the years I have built some very large and complicated moulds with a painted finish. As i often did not require a super high gloss and fair surface I would spray a couple of coats of PVA (with out any wax of other surface prep) and then laminate. Never once have I had a stick up. The PVA creates a excellent barrier as long as you do not pierce it while laminating. The next best option is of course wax..but this has some disadvantages..slow to apply in time and cure timeframes and you get build up in corners / crevices over time. Now I have moved to a wipe on / wipe off release there's no going back to wax...there's a few different brands of this stuff available..but in general 4 coats on a new mould is plenty, then good for multiple releases. The wipe on and wipe off thing with only 30 minutes between coats means for very quick prep work. No more wax build up. I shall post a pic update soon. Cheers...Gary
Posted on: 8/17/2009 11:59 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9024598
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
Thankyou Sirit, but they are 95% perfect, I want 99%. (actually I want 110%) but even 100% is a very tough call. I made some mistakes in these first female moulds..not totally unexpected as I want (and need) to be able to high temp cure my hulls, I figure the ultimate weight/ strength combination will come from elevated temp post curing carbon epoxy and this means having moulds that will take more heat than the hulls being built. In cranking up the temperature I got plug planking distortion, which of course transfered to the moulds. The good news is I now have moulds capable of high temp and have now popped a couple of hulls out of these moulds, which with a little prep work I will then build another set of moulds. Two weeks work i am thinking and I will have a final perfect high temp set of production moulds. A few have looked at the hulls I have built and said , nothing wrong with those, look beautiful..well they do look good and If you were to give them a light wet and dry sand and paint / decal finish..well they are perfect...but I want a perfect finish out of the mould..particularly as i have plans to use clear coat/pearl epoxy gelcoat. so , just a little bit longer now. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/17/2009 11:46 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9024562
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
Idealist, thanks for French link, its translates very well with "babelfish", the forum was a very interesting read. Its been a few weeks since I last posted, time spent cleaning up workshop and awaiting resin, glass supplies to all come together. I have now built both sets of moulds and the pics below show the float mould released after a week of curing. A very , very easy release, in fact probably the easiest plug/ mould release I have ever had. A big thanks must go out to Adhesive Technologies ( Grant and Nick) for their patience in resolving my endless questioning about their product lines. I made the decision to switch to Chemlease release products and move completely away from Wax..turns out this was a great decision..application is sooooo easy, quick and effective. To be fair, using epoxy resin also did make the release easier. distortion and shrinkage have become a distant memory since i stopped using polyester. I have not released the main hull mould yet, this mould is a few days behind the float mould and as i used a very slow setting hardener I choose to let the moulds cure for 6 days before pulling. I am not happy with the float mould, is is not to the standard I want, There are a couple of very small hair line cracks in gelcoat, most likely caused by the plug moving under vacuum while sucking down the 2x 3 oz skins , too much sucky motor me thinks,so so will likely build another mould this week. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/13/2009 6:45 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9014272
RE: 2.4 Ghz For Boats
In both my ETNZ's I fixed my receivers onto and under the hatch with sticky back velco. Had a lot of problems keeping water out of the hull due to leaky hatch syndrome and doing this kept the expensive receivers out of any water. This worked fine, but I did suffer from signal loss occasionally, think this was more a problem with the spectrum 2.4 radio. Have since changed to futaba fasst 2.4...yet to run the boats with fasst but all reports were this was the way to go..hence the change. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/11/2009 8:17 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9008753
RE: Spinnaker sails
I'm all for the code Zero, much simpler to fit than a spin..still be a challlenge though. Gary
Posted on: 8/6/2009 11:55 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8996627
RE: Ragnarok - 65M Trimaran
Nice work Sirit, keep it coming. Gary
Posted on: 8/5/2009 11:58 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8993900
RE: Sail Winch discovery
Todd makes my sails , I will ask him about the flat wire..I too use round and this is fine..(but I am not pro racer)..but always interested in new ideas. Do you use solid round or stranded wire rope for your rigging?? Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/5/2009 5:57 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8992993
RE: Sail Winch discovery
Tato Lazo, Thankyou for detailed answers...you just saved me some hard earned cash...back to the Hitec 785 for me for now. Did you discover anything about the flat wire??..this interests me also. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/5/2009 4:35 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8992766
RE: Sail Winch discovery
Yep, I have since found a english version of product description...toilet resistance= water resistance..hnmmmm..they actually have a pic of it in a glass of water. I had wondered about the 6 turn business..I get 3 turns from my 785HB with a spektrum DX3. Gary
Posted on: 8/5/2009 6:39 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8991457
RE: Sail Winch discovery
Yep Sirit, just done some checking @6v Hitec 785hb 360 degrees @ 1.4 sec, 13.2 kgcm stall torque Eugle 360 degrees 0.9 sec , 9.8 kgcm stall torque The eugle is about 30 grams lighter and physically a little smaller...they also have a full metal gear version for a little more money. Sooo, a lot faster but a sacrifice in torque but I think there is a way to increase torque by the sheeting arrangement. I would like to hear from someone who uses these winches for a first hand account. I am no expert in electronics so need some advice from techo people...really keen to buy one though and have a play..just need to find a local supplier. Gary
Posted on: 8/5/2009 12:40 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8991129
Sail Winch discovery
Ok so it was not lost, but thanks to a forum link provided by idealist , I just found a sail winch which seems to good to be true, has any one out there tried these and know where to get them in NZ or Australia?? http://66.163.168.225/babelfish/translate_url_content?.intl=us&lp=fr_en&trurl=http%3a%2f%2fr2hobbies.com%2fproddetail.php%3fprod%3drcps91116_10y%26utm_source%3dstreamsend%26utm_medium%3demail%26utm_content%3d4679401%26utm_campaign%3dLooking%2520for%2520Sailing%2520Boat%2520Servo%2520%253F%25206%2520Circles%2520Water%2520Resistance%2520Available%2521 Tis much better than a Futaba or Hitic 785HB, tis aluminium case and waterproof it seems ??. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/4/2009 10:57 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8990852
Multi forum
Multi hull yachts have been dominating the sail forums for many many months...perhaps it is time to split the sail forum and add a Multi forum, if you do this, is it possible to take the active multi threads across?? . Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/4/2009 8:05 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "Suggestions"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8990384
RE: My own Mini40
Hey Idealist, Fantastic news, really looking forward to this. I really like the crossmember on Foncia as well and and been thinking about doing mine this way..not just for looks but I thought it also made sense that when the inevitable pitchpole happens then maybe there is more chance of recovery as the front cross members would not be square onto the water when submerged..therefore not so likely to trip up. Well , Multi's seem to be dominating this sailing website lately..maybe its time for a multi dedicated forum on this site??. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/4/2009 2:44 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8988378
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
I think one of the toughest decisions in the process of building plugs is knowing when to draw the line at each stage of fairing, filling, polishing etc.. The main hull is now 100% ready for moulding ,this is where I drew my line.
Posted on: 8/3/2009 7:46 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8987357
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
[quote]ORIGINAL: TBK Gary Very novel approach to making fin moulds. It's something I think is worth a try. You must have a little machine shop setup to be able to make all these neat little metal templates and dies. Your hull moulds look awesome. The meticulous attention to detail is certainly evident. It puts my build to shame, but it has inspired my to make female moulds for my next project - an RG65. Have you decided on the deck shape yet? I don't recall seeing any moulds for those yet. Are you using a flat deck or rounded shape. The rounded shape does provide more resis.tance to pichtpoling when the bows submerge. Keep the photos coming I love your work. TBK [/quote] Hi TBK..there you are!!...sorry to hear about your summer...maybe you are in for a nice winter??. I am fortunate to have a wife who owns a light engineering company with a workshop full of toys..however most of what I have done thus far involves a vice, a few metal files, a little emery paper, a electric drill..thats it...the stuff most home builders would have. I try to keep my ideas simple and easy. There is no shame in your build, I thought you did a very nice job actually and look forward to your RG65 build log. I have not built deck moulds yet...very soon though. these attached pics show the look I have designed to work on my build...The Trilogy float hulls will look alot like this. BTW..I had a original launch time frame for October..Have decided to aim for the 22nd of October to launch two new boats...tis my birthday. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/3/2009 6:48 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8987196
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
[quote]ORIGINAL: Idealist @ Dreamwakes Incredible! Outstanding! Excellent! - (Did I forget something? *ggg*) Just keep on rocking, Gary! (and I`m thinking about buying a set of MOULDS from you!!! - I´ll never be THAT good on plug-/mould-building as you are!) Idealist [/quote] Thankyou Idealist, I think that is just about the highest compliment a plug builder could receive.. At he risk of getting
Posted on: 8/3/2009 6:34 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8987151
RE: Ragnarok - 65M Trimaran
Holy cow!! theres no stopping you Sirit, you on fire??, incredibly fast first build from moulds. Really good looking Tri BTW. Gary
Posted on: 8/3/2009 3:42 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8985484
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
Hey Manta, that is awesome, looks great..you must be happy with the result...I can see you have some tuning to do but you did a great job of getting her in the water quickly...I was beginning to wonder if you were ever gonna show us your boat..looks like the main hull may have a bow down attitude..maybe someone smarter than me can offer their educated thoughts...next...more wind, up on one hull and a video footage for our viewing pleasure. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/3/2009 3:34 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8985479
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
[quote]ORIGINAL: bertauy Dreamwakes, how do you intend to make the molds for fin and rudder? make 2 halves, and then join them after pulling out of the mold? I am trying to figure out the best way of making some myself. Yann [/quote] And Yann, you asked about fin build , so here you go. So after an aweful lot of thunking and research trying to figure how I was gonna build fins symetrical
Posted on: 8/3/2009 3:26 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8985471
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
[quote]ORIGINAL: bertauy VERY NICE WORK. Cant wait to see the hulls come out of the female molds. thoughts on selling the hulls? [/quote] Thanks Bertauy..will not be long now!!. Been thinking about the sales side of things,been asked a few times now...still thinking about it (there's a few issues yet to resolve with this scenario)...gotta few other rc boat plug projects on the go at the moment...watch this space. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 8/3/2009 2:58 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8985450
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
If you were wondering what the float hull plug would look like after a 320 dry block , a progressive 400, 600,800,1000 grit wet sand,a buff and polish, solvent clean, 2 coats of sealer glaze and 4 coats of release agent.....then here's a few pics to show you...now 100% ready for gelcoat, lamination etc.. The gloss is not as high as I would have liked, but I choose to hand buff rather than machine cut...did not like the idea of subjecting the plugs to high frequency vibration.
Posted on: 8/2/2009 12:12 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8982755
RE: RT65 or just another 65M trimaran
[quote]ORIGINAL: Sirit Hi Yann, you can find some pics of the RC layout in the build log here. I use a standard servo as sail servo now. I had tried a miniature one but ran into problems, I changed it to a standard size servo (30Ncm), it is enough space for a standard servo anyway. The appendages are build roughly the way you think, layup with the cloth and epoxy, then glueing the two halves together with epoxy as well. @Gary Thanks, can't wait to see it hit the water too. My MKVIII plug still need some sanding - btw have you started to build one of those little ones besides the MKVIII - I followed your build log - outstanding work I'm working on rig plans for my RT65s and will include them to the ZIPs next week Happy Sailing [/quote] Cheers Sirit, no have not started on the small version yet..I was most impressed with the way your 65 tri sailed and guess I would like to see some more vid of it before I started build ....looking forward to getting onto it though..the joy of having half the area to sand/fair /paint prep..should be a walk in the park.. Interesting tooling gelcoat colour on your moulds BTW, never seen this before. Cheers......Gary
Posted on: 7/30/2009 10:52 PM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8977740
RE: Kiwi Mini40 Trimaran build log
Yep Manta, its time to show us the money..we want to see your multi. Now as I understand it you have three choices. 1/ Hitec 785hb winch..cheap slow but high torque 2/ Futaba equivilant...cheap fast but lower torque 3/ save your pocket money for a RMG winch and never look back. Show us your pics...maybe we can suggest a cheaper solution. Hey Ernst, Gave the hulls a thorough block back today, spent alot of time on the trim edges...now ready for some fine wet paper work. Thankyou for the brilliant info on foil assist...I have started on the rudder/ centreboards ( making split moulds for these). I will experiment with foil assist but will not start building these yet, thought I would first focus on getting a satisfactory result with rudders/ dagger first and so am building a few different shapes/ sizes to play with. It is hard to know what will work best but I am thinking that focusing on getting them symetrical will be the over riding important factor..this is not an easy thing to do.Unless you have access to CNC gear. Cheers Gary
Posted on: 7/29/2009 7:12 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8973059
RE: A Class 1.7m LOA
Larrykin, nice vid. Very graceful/elegant yacht..and a perfect day for it. Gary
Posted on: 7/28/2009 10:14 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8970447
RE: help with a catamaran
Hi Chf, I am thinking that you would be better with a beam around 80cm for a 1.2mt cat...but I have not built a RC cat myself so am no expert. I did spend a fair amount of time investigating building a 1.2mt cat though. I would have thought mast height between 1.6-1.8 mt would work for you..(at 54cm beam). Rudders and fins ...hmmmnnn..well you could probably use rudders from a IOM mono ( if you are running twin rudders) otherwise if you are using a centre mount rudder and centreboard (and I have seen this work very well on a few 1.2mt cats) then you probably need rudder around 250cm deep and centreboard 350mm deep. Both would need to be around 6cm wide. As for the thickness , that is anyones guess??..but probably between 5-8mm thick at widest point. Sorry I cannot give you better info..there are much more experienced cat builders out there who could give you wiser advise I am sure..good luck. Gary
Posted on: 7/28/2009 10:02 AM by Author "dreamwakes"
in the forum "RC Sailboats"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8970421
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