RE: 2009 World News from Portugal by USA supporter
Cindy, GREAT JOB! Almost as good as being there.... sorta. Thank you for making the effort. On the planes, women and girlfriends thing; what's the difference? We fly high, we crash and burn. The one we want is perfect and the one we have isn't. If we take care of them they perform their best (usually) and if we abuse them they do not. We shine them extra carefully after they've shown us a good time, and we want everybody to envy us for having the one we have. You'll have to admit the lines get fairly blurred. VBG Tell the guys I wish them well. Brian Clemmons
Posted on: 8/25/2009 10:09 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9045233

RE: Trimming Issue/Exercise
[quote]ORIGINAL: mjfrederick Let's see, I hope I can say this without sounding like a jerk... The Triangulation Trimming article was removed from Bryan's website on purpose. The link is not broken, it is no longer there. The information contained on that page is the property of the author, and probably should not be reproduced or posted without permission of the author or his representatives. [/quote] This is correct, Matt. The material is copyrighted and was removed by command of the owner. It should not be reproduced without written permission, and none has been granted. webmaster, hebertcompetitiondesigns.com
Posted on: 4/13/2009 10:55 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8678960

RE: Shinden Build
[quote]ORIGINAL: SKYPILOT Has the quality improved on the Genesis?? I read through the whole build thread and everything else i could find, and found MANY mentions of quality issues, so that has me afraid of it. I talked with Patty at BVM again today, and she said that UNFORTUNATELY............the Shindens won't be in until late May-early June[:o][:o] She DID say however, that she has a couple OTOP's in stock, so, i'll probably order one of those............unless you guys think thats a mistake. I am just coming back to pattern and IMAC after about ten years away while flying jets, so i'm really in need of some feedback and guidance on airframe selection, engine selection, etc., so thanks guys for the feedback so far and please keep it coming[:D] [/quote] I've got a unique perspective on the Shinden; I've bought two. One from the first shipment, one from the second. And, I've flown both the wooden prototype as well as the first composite model, owned by the designer. Further, I have third one on the way, and I've never owned two of the same pattern plane before! I'm not one of the top FAI pilots, but I do know a few, and have seen most of them fly. Seems to me that there's two basic ways people are going with pattern planes right now; first, there's the rodeo rider..... get something that is marginally tameable and hold on for the count of eight. Try not to fall off. The Integral is one of those to my way of thinking. Lots of mixes. More unstable means it can spin and snap better, right? Or not....... On the other hand, you could be riding a well mannered thoroughbred; which is what the Shinden is, with no mixes. Nada. I can tell you which horse would win a race, and it's the one you can control the best. Snaps and spins are judged on precison, not on how violently they are entered. (although the Shinden does these maneuvers well) Models like the Integral (or for that matter, Hebert's Quest) are a bit difficult to stay ahead of. The top 10 pilots can fly almost anything, but everybody else needs something they can stay a split second in front of, control wise. Hebert's Shindin's are set up far too hot for my tastes, but I can still control them. Smoothly. I knew it the first time I saw the prototype fly, which was the maiden flight, flown in drizzling rain and a brisk wind. It was obviously Hebert's best design to date, with no close second. It did a knife edge loop on the first flight! At half the original control throw of the rudder, I might add. The rudder turned out to be much, much more effective than Bryan thought it would be! My main problem is using too much rudder on rolls; a habit built over years that needs to be broken with this model. With this one you just THINK rudder. Word I'm getting is that BVM gets another shipment in 4~6 weeks. That will give me time to finish painting and test flying the one I'm working on now! Bryan finished his composite kit in four days, but I'm slower. My understanding is that the latest batch is the lightest yet, which should benefit the electrics crowd. I fly YS. And no, neither of mine is for sale.
Posted on: 2/20/2008 7:09 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=7109225

RE: 2007 F3A World Championships
[quote]ORIGINAL: 3DnSD Twas the night before the World Championships on RCU, The cast of characters had assembled and insults flew, [/quote] Roses are red, violets are blue; Trolls are a pain, finish the rest yourself.... this is stupid. You might wish to 'check six' and decide if you're a better pilot than Arch; but I doubt it. Anonymous insults towards your betters does not make one more admirable. PLEASE, let's keep this to legitimate posts. Arch (a great guy, and a heck of a Masters pilot), made some comments on his IMPRESSIONS of a plane in the air. Personal preferences, only. Some people like chocolate, some vanilla. Nothing sinister in that, either. For me, congrats to Quique, Jason and Andrew. I remember seeing Quique do a 32 point roll three feet above an asphalt runway; seeing Jason knife to knife snaps right then left the length of the runway, and seeing Andrew fly an EMC2 as big as he was (almost)......... and am delighted for each of them. Personally, I feel Jason, too, is capable of a Championship, and suspect the same in Andy. Nationalistic pride? You bet, nothing wrong with that, either. I did, after all, point out that the French (with CPLR on the team) would be tough to beat. Congratulations to them, as well, they're nice guys in addition to being great pilots. Brian
Posted on: 11/19/2007 11:08 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6647945

RE: 2007 F3A World Championships
[quote]ORIGINAL: Rune hey Ola Fremming in the semi final....thats great Ola!!! And ...Ola those groupies some post up ...is for you ..enjoy them!!! [/quote] Me, too. Congratulations, Ola! Brian Clemmons
Posted on: 11/15/2007 7:44 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6630369

RE: 2007 F3A World Championships
[quote]ORIGINAL: MTK [/quote] Man, this person, whoever it is, really hit a chord with you and Bryan. To me, it isn't worthy of a response. MattK [/quote] Well, Matt; For starters, I had a long hard day. Then, the courageous no-namer flamed my country, our team, my best friend, then me all in the space of a few lines. And to be honest, few things get my goat quite like snide comments coming from behind a figurative skirt. Finally, standing mute while boorish behavior is flaunted simply emboldens them to continue. I would be pleased to see any of a number of the top pilots win it all; so many of them were gracious to me in France. (Of course, I am rooting for our own team and feel their chances are good.) If CPL were to lose the individual title, look out for the French in 2009; he and Benoit would head an impressive team. I'm glad the two of them are not eligible at the same time this year to oppose our team! Never overlook the Japanese.... they hold an impressive collection of Team titles and place finishes. None better. Individually; I like (in no particular order) CPL, BPL, QQ, Jason, Onda to finish high. QQ because of his dedication, Jason because of his abilities in the Unknowns, Christophe and Benoit fly so smoothly, and Onda does it effortlessly. These are the guys who are actually on the sticks flying the plane in my dreams, which I always think is me! After these five, it's a hard guess. But I do hope each of the others is able to produce his best flights. They are out there stretching the envelope for the rest of us, and deserve a great contest. BrianC
Posted on: 11/13/2007 6:18 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6620806

RE: 2007 F3A World Championships
>>Aren't you the USA team manager from the 2005 team where you and your assistant posted that incredulous stuff about the WC judging << from 3DnSD You know, I'm equally impressed with your own pride and prejudice. Let's recap, you post without identifying yourself, always brave; from San Diego (riiiight) and proceed to get down on the ugly Americans. Bravo, I salute you. Having the courage of my own convictions, I will identify myself as the aforementioned assistant. Challenge! Name yourself before the world! Having such a good memory, you will recall that there was a situation in 2005 that did, in fact, receive passing mention from the Jury. An apology, even. Were you there? Be brave, tell the truth, and put your name to it. To be honest, more than one competitor chided me at the time for being publicly irritated. They said, this is the way things are at the Worlds; get used to it and be discrete. And I do understand their wisdom better today, in addition to appreciating it. I will, personally, make a categorical statement on my own behalf; having met the Matt's in St. Yan, I feel that they are true sportsman, gentlemen, and competitors. They would be (perhaps are, if reading this) aghast to be part of this current flame job. Wolfgang, Roland, please accept my apology for being part of this; even though I was not a willing participant. Wolfgang, I've always admired you, and Roland is a definite contender. I do feel, however, that there are a FEW better pilots in the world. You could name them with one set of fingers, only, using names such as CPL, Onda and ONE or TWO others. (Personal opinion, only.) Having a Matt be champion would be good for the sport. We need heroes we can all respect (as CPL has been.) These two are among the elite. Would I like to see USA on top? Of course I would, is there anythig wrong with that? However, it has to be earned; winning without earning it is meaningless. Which is why we all push for objectivity on judging. Perhaps you will recall the furor over an American judge in Japan a few years back? Who were the "cry babies" then? One thing we cherish here in the ugly States, is the right to voice an opinion. Usually, it can be done without personal attack. Even that is another ugly american trait, though. No one else in the world ever demonstrates nation favoritism, or ever denigrates others, do they? I am quite flattered to discover that I, alone, constitute an "internet machine", BTW. Back to the apology; which this post actually IS; to the Matts, for having made you a part of this shameful thread. To the rest of the world; for daring to have opinions about who might or might not win this year. To the unknown flamer; for dignifying your post with a response. Isn't pattern flying supposed to be fun and cameraderie? Brian Clemmons
Posted on: 11/12/2007 6:49 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6616041

RE: Hebert's Shinden
[quote]ORIGINAL: twtaylor Brian I'm gathering the things I need for this airplane. So far I have a Hyde ARIA mount. 821 Muffler with the 29 mm rise Nashika mount (SP?). I intend to use the NMP header. What size spinner? Is it possible to run twin elev servos? Or do you recomend something else? The DEPS system perhaps? You stated in another post you made changes to the airplane that would lower the weight 8-10 oz. Thats quite a drop and should make weight easily now. I can hardly wait! I hope to pick mine up at Joe Nall. Tim Taylor [/quote] You will want the ARA mount; it is 3.1 oz and the ARIA is 4.9 oz. Twin servos will put the weight to the tail, which isn't good. Definitely, DEPS. I also used a smaller servo tray that I built. The Hatori header is lighter, don't have the numbers, but I recommend it, anyway. 3 1/2" spinner. There are some stab mods, too, but it'll take a few days to make a pictoral to show and tell. I kinda got sidetracked making motors run in my other plane! Brian
Posted on: 4/22/2007 11:30 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5755600

RE: Hebert's Shinden
[quote]ORIGINAL: twtaylor I don't see how there can be any good or bad news about this airplane yet as there is a grand total of 5 sold so far? The reviews we've seen so far are from those close to the designer. Does this make the reviews we've read so far true or not? No. Time will tell. Do I need this airplane? Nope I sure don't. Do I want this airplane? I sure do. Why? Because I think it's kewl and it might just help me be a better pilot. Along with a set of 20 year old eyes. These 1957 models are about worn out. :) [/quote] I'm with you all the way on that one, brother!!! I figure I've got about another five before the long slow slide gets me. Some of it already has; got a knee rebuilt last year. Got bifocals the year before. That's why I need better equipment, too, compensation. [:-] Brian
Posted on: 4/16/2007 11:26 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5727449

RE: Hebert's Shinden
I've flown both, and watched both being built. I was in Autun, France when Bryan struck the deal with Xtreme Composites to kit the Shinden. The original plans were penned on paper I provided for that very purpose. All this means I have a right to say; if anybody is having a problem with a Shinden, then they did something wrong putting it together. Just that simple. This model is not a Senior Telemaster! One thing that the wide availability of composites has done for an entire generation of modelers, is to remove the nuts and bolts ability to put together AND TRIM, an airplane capable of FAI competition. Flying the current F-07 schedule requires a precise airframe. "Close enough" won't cut the mustard. Getting the kit 90% complete from the manufacturer isn't the end of the road. Servo selection, placement, weight balance; these are all CRITICAL elements if you expect to own and fly a model capable of flying a horizontal eight with integral half rolls. Or a rolling figure "S". You have to know and apply the difference between 1/4 and 1/2 degrees of wing incidence and be able to detect the difference in the air to be qualified to render judgement on this airplane. Moving a Duralite pack two inches is the difference between having a Stradivarius and having a dog of a pattern plane when you are flying one of Hebert's planes. The closer to perfect a plane gets, the more sensitive it becomes to misadjustment. I've flown every pattern plane he's designed in the last twenty years, and should know. His designs have won trophies in EVERY level of competition, right up to the World Championships. How many can have the same said of their designs? One hint, it's a short list. It'll fit on one hand if you're counting on fingers. Falt bottom air foils are easy to set incidence on; one of these is a tad more sensitive. This model can do both the horizontal eight and figure "S" well, without any mixing; I watched both the original and to composite doing both just yesterday in 20mph+ winds. Repeatedly. Doing this requires a bit more than passing knowlege of glueing the parts together according to the plans. If God Himself kitted a pattern plane, I assure you that there would be people that gave it mixed reviews because they made assembly and trimming errors. For the guys that gave the model mixed reviews; did any of them call the cell phone number provided in the instruction manual? (I can tell you, none have. No one has. Poor use of a superb resource, if you ask me. Why not ask the designer how to balance the plane, especially when he is made available for FREE?) This is a great model. My only regret is that it will cause me no end of grief deciding whether to fly the Shinden or my other Hebert design, the 3D. I really, really like this 3D. But, I'd kinda like to have another Shinden, too. Got ONE already. It won't be in Atlanta, but the 3D will also be available for test flights; try it and see for yourself if Hebert knows how to build 'em. The final piece of the puzzle is Bob Violette; his reputation is likewise impeccable. If BVM reps a product, it is good. You can be sure he doesn't play around with junk; a good reputation takes a lifetime to establish, but only a moment to destroy and Bob knows that. So does Bryan. So, come to Atlanta; fly these planes, guys! Free test drives; planes put together by the designer, three of them; can't offer a better deal than that! Brian Clemmons [quote]ORIGINAL: flyncajun Hey if any of you want to go to Atlanta we will form a line and any body can fly it and determine for themselves I will be there with both airplanes Bryan [/quote]
Posted on: 4/16/2007 6:21 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5725741

RE: Hebert's Shinden
If Tommy's coming back into pattern, y'all look out!!!! I'm sure the IMAC boys could use the break..... [:D]
Posted on: 4/16/2007 5:27 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5725450

RE: Hebert's Shinden
I guess it might be considered fun if you didn't have a horse in the race! ;) Brian
Posted on: 4/2/2007 9:30 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5656172

RE: Hebert's Shinden
I re-read the first post; NINE ounces is do-able. Call Hebert, or call me. You will need to do an inventory of every component, with weights of each. Brian Clemmons 225-572-0189
Posted on: 4/2/2007 1:16 AM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5652127

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Some suggestions on weight; the Hyde ARA mount is 3.1 oz, the ARIA is 4.9 oz. I recommend the Futaba 9650 servo for throttle, 0.9 oz; the 3050 servo for rudder (1.6 oz and 90 0z torque) 9550 for elevator 1.6 oz and 83 oz torque; and 1.9 oz 9150's in the wings. Using the 791 header and 821 pipe is light, too. DEPS pushrod in place of the supplied pushrod; light backplate for the spinner, Duralite battery (or li-poly's) and watch your servo mounting very carefully. I can take pics of mine, if anyone wants to see it, of the installation. I've got a SUPER LIGHT tank mount, too. Easy to make, weighs next to nothing. It's not exactly like Bryan's, but he likes it. Of course, some trick things can help; carbon fiber spinner, Dubro diamond tread tires, and I have a bunch of little things to help weight placement for balancing without using lead weights. Did you know that moving the motor mount 1/8" forward is equivalent to adding an ounce of lead six inches forward of the CG? Think inch-ounces of lever moment. And try not to add lead weight to balance. Mine is one of the first batch, too, and I've been careful with installation, but not crazy with it. Bob Violette has set absolute weight standards for everything received after the first batch, but the first five just need a little bit extra care. Hebert was flying his today with Matt Frederrick and I; we can attest to the performance, in his hands. I'm sure Hebert can help you 'get er done', as Bob Violette mentioned in the instruction book sent with the model. Bryan has a couple of things that will shed a few ounces, too, if you would call the number in your instruction manual. It's not going to be easy to get performance, durability, and low weight or else everybody would be doing it! This is a BIG model. But shedding six ounces is do-able. And help has been made available. Brian
Posted on: 4/2/2007 1:11 AM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5652113

RE: Hebert's Shinden
[quote]ORIGINAL: onewasp But with that as a given it still comes down to the 100 Gallons of fuel each year ----- year after year. [/quote] 150 if you're using a DZ!!
Posted on: 3/21/2007 10:10 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5598100

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Maybe so, but you are assuming that ANY plane can be properly set up. One past design that is well known was the Prophecy. Lotta trophies won with it. Doesn't do knife edge very well by today's standards. Sean McMurtry doesn't fly his any more, sold it to Chris White several years ago. He beat you and I both with it. And I hope Chris is still flying it. My plane does a beautiful knife edge, with my inferior skills. Might be the edge I need when Chris and I meet again. Winning, second place, third...... not much separates them in Muncie. A better design would do it. A 'skilled pilot' would win almost anywhere with a 'properly set up' plane, but to win in the big show, you need the best tools. Brian [quote]ORIGINAL: RC_Pattern_Flyer Any properly setup airplane can be a winner in the hands of a skilled pilot. I am not knocking any of the expensive designs but, a plane helps but skill and an eye for patern is the most iportant. [/quote]
Posted on: 3/21/2007 10:07 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5598069

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Jon, The plane, theoretically, should not be the limiting factor. Better pilot needs a better plane. I helped a guy adjust the balance on his P-51 today and he was amazed. Thrilled. The P-51 sport scale is still a turd, but he loved it. You got your hands on a plane that does not limit you. You would feel limited by a Cessna, but an F-22 might stretch you, and you are a professional pilot. The Shinden suited you. Feels good, doesn't it? Bryan understands airplane design and airplane trimming, as you observed today. Come back to Dixie and fly my 3D.... you'll like it too. And I have flown that Shinden, as you will recall. I've done all of the work trimming the 3D since Bryan finished with the original setup, most of which he pointed out the need for. What's important here, is me learning what he's showing. That's the really neat thing about this hobby, when people do it right; we all win. Bryan is my good friend, and it's only natural that I should blow his horn, but, he's a great guy that gets his high by seeing those he helps out to succeed. That's a rare commodity. And it is why I recommend his planes. He helps because he likes to, and he's good at it. You should have been around when the Quest was flying, though. Another great plane, but it was akin to that F-22; a really hot setup! Not many could handle it. BTW, I pulled the DZ out of the 3D and put an "L" in it, along with other mods that have it approaching 10 lbs. It's flying really good. Come give it a try, too. Brian C.
Posted on: 3/18/2007 11:55 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5582339

RE: Hebert's Shinden
I figure this one ought to give you a run this year, Mike..... if I can keep it this nice till Muncie. Brian C. ;)
Posted on: 3/5/2007 6:17 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5515519

RE: Hebert's Shinden
And another pic....
Posted on: 3/5/2007 6:15 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5515508

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Wanna see my photos, eh Matt? I got you and the Genesis, Harold (Collins who built...) my 3D, and Bryan with the compiosite Shinden. They are big, it'll take several replies. Obviously, we all had a great day together out at Dixie, with the exception of Jon, who lost an airplane. He'll be back into it soon because Jim Thompson sold him another one like the last! Brian
Posted on: 3/5/2007 6:14 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5515503

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Bryan Hebert was being conservative about the wind; it was hellacious. I flew in the same air, and it was no picnic. 20 mph minimum up top, about 10deg cross blowing in. And his model handled it beautifully. In the avalanche, I pulled, then at the 9 o'clock point PUSHED to maintain roundness with my 140DZ powered 3D. Definitely over 10 mph. Not that his model showed any of this. To go one better, this model may actually fly better than the original. After a few flights only, with no adjustments, it is certainly no worse. No one, other than Hebert, has seen more of the original than myself, either. I'm even happier to have gotten one myself and can't wait till I have time to finish it. Working too darned much right now! Brian Clemmons "Dingo bites."
Posted on: 3/4/2007 11:42 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5511949

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Great to hear from you, Chad! By coincidence, I'm wearing my Team Canada shirt right now! My plan is to be in Muncie, got a couple of really good planes, a closet full of fuel waiting to be turned into smoke and noise, and am actually flying pretty good. (I've never been happy with my flying before) How about you? Still flying Plettenburg? Brian C
Posted on: 1/29/2007 12:01 AM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5338925

RE: Hebert's Shinden
And the last three. If anybody wants a picture, or a closeup, of any particular area, just let me know and I will try to accommodate you. Brian C
Posted on: 1/28/2007 11:08 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5338664

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Three more...
Posted on: 1/28/2007 11:05 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5338641

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Come to think of it, I have some of Bryan H's too. Coming at you.
Posted on: 1/28/2007 11:02 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5338629

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Well; how about some of these?!
Posted on: 1/28/2007 10:56 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5338597

RE: Hebert's Shinden
By the way, Matt, you turned out to be an excellent cook! Hamburgers were great, that deer sausage made from the deer you shot with your thirty-aught-jeep was great, you may have just gotten yourself elected designated chef when we elect club officers again! Everybody KNOWS that the guys at Dixie cook and eat almost as much as we fly! It's all about the good time..... Brian C
Posted on: 1/28/2007 7:11 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5337228

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Matt, lost your number, call me? Brian C.
Posted on: 1/27/2007 10:52 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5333312

RE: Hebert's Shinden
Well, yeah! (Of course, that led to the demise of my LAST plane; rain shorted out the antennae) Brian
Posted on: 1/26/2007 5:28 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5327419

RE: Hebert's Shinden
What's your point? VBG (we're going anyway) Brian
Posted on: 1/25/2007 11:04 PM by Author "protectedpilot" in the forum "Pattern Flying"
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5324416